Friday, November 17, 2006

Confronting the Arab Propaganda Machine

I recently came across this in my blogging escapades:

Look Into My Eyes
Look into my eyes
Tell me what ya see
U don't see a damn thing
Cuz u can't relate to me
U blinded by our differences
My life makes no sense to u
I'm the persecuted one
U the red, white and blue

Each day u wake in tranquility
No fears to cross your eyes
Each day I wake in gratitude
Thankin' God He let me rise

Ya worry 'bout your education
And the bills u have to pay
I worry 'bout my vulnerable life
And if I'll survive another day

Ya biggest fear is getting a ticket
As ya cruise your Cadillac
My fear is that the tank that's just left
Will turn around and come back

Yet do u know the truth of where ya money goes
Do u let the media deceive your mind
Is this a truth that nobody knows
Has our world gone all blind

Yet do u know the truth of where ya money goes
Do u let the media deceive your mind
Is this a truth that nobody knows
Some one tell me
Oh let's not cry tonight
I promise you one day it's through

Ohohoh my brothers
Ohohoh my sisters
Oh shine a light for every soul
That ain't with us no more

Ohohoh my brothers
Ohohoh my sisters
See I've known terror for quite some times

57 years so cruel
Terror breathes the air I breathe
It's the check point on my way to school
Terror is the robbery of my land
And the torture of my mother
The imprisonment of my innocent father
The bullet in my baby brother
The bulldozers and the tanks
The gasses and the guns
The bombs that fall outside my door
All due to your funds

You blame me for defending myself
Against the ways of my enemies
I'm terrorized in my own land
And I'm the terrorist

Yet do u know the truth of where ya money goes
Do u let the media deceive your mind
Is this a truth that nobody knows
Has our world gone all blind

Yet do u know the truth of where ya money goes
Do u let the media deceive your mind
Is this a truth that nobody knows
Some one tell me
Oh let's not cry tonight
I promise you one day it's through

Ohohoh my brothers
Ohohoh my sisters
Oh shine a light for every soul
That ain't with us no more
Ohohoh my brothers
Ohohoh my sisters

American do ya realize
That the taxes that u pay
Feed the forces that traumatize
My every living day
So if I won't be here tomorrow
It's written in my fate
May the future bring a brighter day
The end of our wait

Oh let's not cry tonight
I promise you one day it's through
Ohohoh my brothers
Ohohoh my sisters
Oh shine a light for every soul
That ain't with us no more
Ohohoh my brothers
Ohohoh my sisters ...


To which I responded:

This is the product of the Arab Propaganda Machine.

Israel has the right to exist. Israel has the right to defend herself.

It is worth pointing out that there are already two Palestinian states: Israel and Jordan. The whole land of Palestine (that is Israel and Jordan) was set aside as the Jewish Homeland by the League of Nations in 1917.

And then upwards of 3/4 of that land (Jordan) was taken away from the Jews and given to the Arabs. This was the first "two state solution" (though I don't think you can call it a solution).

The idea of there being a separate and distinct people known as Palestinians is a construct that was invented by the Arab propaganda machine. For thousands of years, the who region was known as Palestine. Separating Palestine from Israel is just propaganda. And then separating Jordan from these other Arabs (so called Palestinians) is just more propaganda.

Hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of Muslims are committed to the complete annihilation and destruction of Israel. They have terrorized Israel. In fact, not knowing anything about you (and glossing over the title over the thread initially), it was not until late in the poem that I figured out that you were talking about the so-called Palestinians. In that first part, it looked like the poem of an Israeli who had friends killed by Palestinian terrorist homicide bombers.

Yet, prophecy is being fulfilled. Sad to say, I fear that a second holocaust is coming to the Jewish people. Virtually the whole world is turning their backs on Israel. They are the most persecuted and terrorized people in the world. Terrorist organizations like Islamic Jihad, Hamas, and Hezbollah are committed to Israel's complete destruction, but the UN and the international community say, "Israel is not allowed to defend herself." Meanwhile, more and more land is taken away from Israel, and the terrorists grow more and more bold.

Of course, these so-called Palestinians are people, and my heart goes out to them. But they elected to be governed by a terrorist organization. If the so-called Palestinians were serious about living in peace, then there would be peace. But as long as the so-called Palestinians legitimize these Islamic terrorists keep preaching jihad against Israel and the United States, then there can be no peace. For Israel has the right to exist and the right to defend herself.
I see that "Comment moderation has been enabled." So, I am cutting and pasting and putting this on my blog. I have a strong suspicion that these comments will not be posted.

The real solution to the whole problem is Jesus Christ. In Christ, there is no Jew or Gentile, Israeli or Arab, male or female, but in Christ, we are all family. He loves us. He died on the cross for us. He came and preached peace to us. We must all turn to Him in humility, repentance, and faith - trusting in Him for salvation.

23 Comments:

Blogger Damian Zerek said...

Watch the movie on Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land. It is on my blog.

www.free-journal.blogspot.com

6:18 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

Damian,

I watched the first couple minutes of the movie and I may watch the whole thing when I get time. But I object right away. Immediately, it is obvious that the movie is extremely biased - the product of the Arab Propaganda Machine.

I object to starting the history in 1967. The whole region of the world has been known as "Palestine" for thousands of years. In the region, there have lived Jews and Arabs. I maintain that the idea of a separate and distinct region known as Palestine and a separate people known as Palestinians is one of the biggest propaganda lies that has been sold to the modern world. I fear it will lead to the destruction of Israel and to a second holocaust of the Jews.

Israel is a Jewish Palestinian state. For the whole region (including Jordan) is Palestine. In point of fact, Jordan is an Arab Palestinian state.

If you would be so kind, please inform me of the history of these so-called Palestinians (as in these Arabs who are apparently not Jordanian or Egyptian or Syrian or Lebanese). And when I say history, let's take it before 1967 - or even before 1948. I'd like to talk about the 1917 League of Nations Resolution that Great Britain unilaterally trumped in the early 1920's. In the 1917 resolution, Palestine (the whole region that comprises Jordan, Israel, and the contested territories) was set a part as the Jewish Homeland. Previous to that, the whole region had been under the rule of the Ottoman Empire for hundreds of years. So, whence come these so-called Palestinians? What of their history? The Jews can trace their history all the way back to Biblical times. What of the history of these so-called Palestinians? A separate nation known as Palestine does not even exist. It is nothing more than construct that is being used in order to take land away from Israel. It is no secret that millions of Muslim terrorists want Israel to be totally and completely destroyed.

With all due respect, I submit these comments. God bless you, sir.

8:00 PM  
Blogger iMuslim said...

Hello CE

Interesting entry. It's not often that i read a Pro-Israel piece.

This summer I attended a day of lectures delivered by various members of the Jewish community, including rabbis belonging to Neturei Karta, a group of Orthodox Jews who oppose Zionism.

There I heard something that i'd like for you to verify.

I assume that you are an evangelical Christian, or as some say a Christian Zionist? Some speakers mentioned that the reason why so many evangelical Christians were pro-Israel was in order to fulfil a prophecy that states when the Jews return to Palestine/Jerusalem, the Messiah will also return? Is this true?

Because otherwise i cannot comprehend why a Christian would be so in favour of helping those who curse Jesus Christ calling him a mad bastard and accuse beloved Mary of being a loose, unchaste woman [surely they are both above such lies and insults].

To tolerate those who slander is one thing, but to defend and even encourage them is another matter entirely.

If the prophecy idea was true, i would almost understand your pro-Israel stance. Otherwise i do not understand anything you say and think you are betraying the one whom you profess to love by supporting those who take him as an enemy.

BW

iMuslim

6:30 PM  
Blogger iMuslim said...

P.S. What right to the Jews have to their own "homeland"? What does that even mean? Jews, Muslims, Christians and whoever else were living in Palestine side-by-side for centuries - so why did the Jews suddenly need their own land at the expense of all these other groups?

What makes them so special? The practising Jews may believe they still are the chosen people, but why does everyone else have to buy into this idea?

I don't trust you are genuinely concerned for the welfare of the Jews. The existance of Israel is only making things worse for Jews living in diaspora. Either you want Jerusalem back in the hands of the Christians or there is something even more sinister ahead.

Muslims want justice for their brothers and sisters. They want their lands returned and for them to live in peace without fear of bombs and bullets. Jews have a right to exist but Israel doesn't. We should all want the area you refer to as Palestine to revert back to its original state of being a heterogenous population, where people of all faiths live side-by-side once again. What exists now is apartheid and it cannot be allowed to continue.

6:58 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

I support Israel's right to exist for many related reasons.

In Genesis 12:1-3, God promised to Abram a nation (Israel). He reiterated this promise throughout Genesis - to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel). He promised that those who bless Israel would be blessed and that those who curse Israel would be cursed and that all nations would be blessed through Israel.

The children of Israel are God's chosen people, and God promised them a nation (including land). They have divine right to the land.

Many Muslims also claim divine right to the land. This is heresy.

Jews are also the most persecuted people in the history of the world, and as I said before, I fear that a second holocaust is going to happen.

Jews who reject Jesus Christ are obviously in sin. They will go to hell unless they repent. However, they are still God's chosen people. They still have divine right to the land (for the promise is not conditional). I pray for revival in Israel.

It ought to be pointed out that not all Jews reject Jesus. There are many (hundreds of thousdands) of Messianic Jews - Jews that believe that Jesus is the Messiah - the Son of God. I go to Messianic Jewish services once in a while in my hometown here. I will be celebrating Hanukkah this year for the first time.

That said, I am not suggesting that the Jews walk on water (well, two of them have!) A Jew who commits a crime should be brought to justice. Same with a Muslim, a Christian, an atheist or whoever.

The truth is that Hamas is a terrorist organization. Israel has the right to exist. Anyone who would take up arms against Israel and attempt to deny them their right to exist as a nation is on the side of injustice. I condemn all such actions with every ounce of my being.

If the terrorists would stop attacking Israel, I believe that within a short amount of time there would be peace.

Also, as far as I know, Muslims, Christians, and all kinds of other people are free to live peaceably in Israel. They simply must not attempt to overthrow the government.

Of course, the whole world is turning their backs on Israel except the United States (which is one of the main reasons why we are so hated throughout the world). The government of the United States has already begun to turn her back on Israel and will probably continue to do so. A second holocaust is coming.

But God will make good on His promise. All Israel will be saved. Every one of God's promises will come to pass. I cling to God's promises.

And I pray for Israel that there would be peace and justice and salvation.

God bless.

p.s. If you can't trust that I have the welfare of the Jews in my heart, then I can't make you trust that. But I am an honest person, and I do have the welfare of the Jews in my heart. Very much so. I love the Jews and pray for their salvation. I also love Gentiles (non-Jews) and pray for their salvation.

p.p.s. Before 1917, the Ottoman empire ruled for hundreds of years (400 I think). After WWI, they did not rule, and all of Palestine was granted to the Jews by the League of Nations (this included modern day Jordan). Then, there was the first "two-state solution." (An Arab Palestinian state - Jordan and a Jewish Palestinian state - Israel). The current two-state solution that the whole world seems to be calling for really should be called a three-state solution. (Actually, it should not be called a solution at all.) I wonder how many more two-state solutions will be sold to the world before the Muslims are satisfied.

According to you, they will never be satisfied because you deny Israel's fundamental right to exist. Let me make this plain:

YOU ARE IN ERROR FOR THIS! TO DENY ISRAEL'S RIGHT TO EXIST IS A SIN AGAINST GOD, AGAINST THE JEWS, AND AGAINST HUMANITY! REPENT!

12:18 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

"We should all want the area you refer to as Palestine to revert back to its original state of being a heterogenous population, where people of all faiths live side-by-side once again."

Since you are a Muslim, unless you condemn - in the strongest possible language - the evil of al-Qaeda and radical Islamic terrorism, then I have no reason to believe your above comment. Unless you condemn this radical Islamic terrorism whenever it happens, I will assume that your above quote is nothing but a bald-faced lie. It is your responsibility - as a Muslim - to distinguish in no uncertain terms the differences between you and the terrorists; otherwise, it appears that you are siding with the terrorists.

Of course, you can also simply convert to the truth and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ - the Son of the Living God and that He died on the cross for you to provide atonement for you. As long as you don't do that, you will continue in all kinds of depraved deception. I'm praying for you. God bless you, my friend.

12:34 PM  
Blogger iMuslim said...

Dear Dan,

If terrorism is the killing of innocents (i.e., unarmed civilians) then i am against terrorism, no matter who commits it or who the victims are. That includes terrorists who are Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc. That includes victims that are Muslims, Jews, Christians, etc. That includes terrorist groups, terrorist individuals and terrorist nations who are Muslim, Jew, Christian etc.

In Genesis 12:1-3, God promised to Abram a nation (Israel).

You are forgetting several major points.

1 - God promised the BELIEVERS the promised land - those who actually practice the religion and are not wrongdoers. God does not see race and does not recognise Jewish blood as being specially blessed independent of their actions. The Israeli Jews are killing and oppressing their neighbours - this is wrongdoing, thus God's promise will not hold true for them.

2 - Arabs are also descended from Abraham through his first born son, Ismail (peace be upon them both). Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) was a direct decendent of this line. Thus the religion of Islam is the religion of Abraham and God's promise to the believers was held true when the Muslims took charge of Jerusalem. Thus the Arabs have as much right to the land as their Jewish cousins. It's funny how the Jews and Christians conveniently "forget" Ismail (peace be upon him).

3 - Two thousand years ago God commanded that the Jews leave Jerusalem and live in diaspora as a punishment for their sins, and they are not allowed to return until they reach a certain level of spiritual perfection - i.e., when they are actually practising their religion. Somehow, i don't think they're there yet.

Jews are persecuted not for their blood but because of their behaviour. It is their culture and mentality that people have a problem with, not their genes. Not all Jews are the same. It is dangerous and incorrect to stereotype any group of people. But as i said, the problem does not lie with individuals, it lies with the culture: "We alone are the chosen people". Arrogance rarely wins friends.

The Muslims lost Jerusalem and their grand empire because they became weak in their faith and practise, loving the world more than the Hereafter. When we return to the religion as it was revealed and forget our petty squabbles, God will raise us out of the humilating position we are in inshallah.

We both know Jerusalem is a blessed land and it will purge itself of the wrong-doers soon enough.

BW

iMuslim

3:07 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

iMuslim,

Do you condemn al-Qaeda?

Do you condemn Hezbollah?

Do you condemn Hamas?

"Jews are persecuted not for their blood but because of their behaviour."

This is such a racist statement. If specific Jews do something wrong, then it is appropriate to punish those specific Jews and to condemn their actions and their ideology. But this statement, as it stands, is basically an excuse for more so-called Palestinian terrorists to strap bombs on themselves and then blow up innocent Israelis who are merely trying to live out their lives in peace.

More later...

8:50 AM  
Blogger iMuslim said...

Why are you asking me to condemn the behaviour of those groups when you don't want me to condemn the behaviour of another group?

My statement was not racist but i think your response was prejeudiced. If Jews commit a crime it's OK because it's self-defence, but only Muslims should be held accountable for their crimes?

I think crimes committed by any people are condemnable and punisheable.

So if a group of muslims do something reprehensible than i speak out against that action.

Similarly if a group of Jews does something reprehensible i also speak out.

One cannot turn a blind eye to injustice just because you think the one's doing it are the "good guys".

O ye who believe! stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest ye swerve, and if ye distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.
[Qur'an 4:135]

Racism is where you assume someone's blood/lineage/genes predisposes them to commit a particular action. I.e., they have no choice they are born that way and they can never change.

I clearly said that people have a problem NOT with the Jewish race, but with the culture - i.e., what they do have control over. Not all Jews act the same way and some are absolutely abhorred by the actions of Israel. The unpalatable culture i speak of stems from the idea that the Jews alone are the chosen people. What are we then?

Don't you think such a culture is racist in itself, and as such can lead to horrible consequences as can be seen in the Middle East?

10:35 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Let it be known:

iMuslim refuses to condemn al-Qaeda.

iMuslim refuses to condemn Hamas.

iMuslim refuses to condemn Hezbollah.

So much for valuing justice...

2:35 PM  
Blogger iMuslim said...

Now you're being juvenile by completely ignoring everything i say just to make me look bad.

That is the way of most politicians - i suggest you run in the next election.

You may think because i'm muslim i know everything about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict - i don't. I'm still learning a lot. It is difficult because i have to rely on mainstream media which obviously is bias at any given time. I wish i could go there myself to witness both sides. Maybe if God allows me to marry someone who cares enough to take the risk then i'll have the opportunity, God-willing. I wonder if they'll let me in the country?

Hamas and Hizbullah have done many things i do not condone such as suicide bombings of civilans targets and also sending rockets into areas where they do not know who will be killed or injured.

However they also do a lot of good for the people they live with, providing care in the community when no-one else in the world will.

That is why i am not so quick to condemn them as a group.

The same goes for Israel. It is the government and certain other elements i have the problem with. The individual citizens do not always agree with their government, and many wish the conflict to end peacefully which is why i do not think they can be considered legitimate targets.

Al-Qaeda - i don't know who these guys are or where they came from. I don't even think the group really existed in an international sense until the War on Terror. As i said i don't agree with the murder of unarmed civilians by any group so if there is such a thing as Al-Qaeda that has such a goal, then surely they are terrorists.

Do you still think Israel can do no wrong?

1:09 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

I never said that Israel could do no wrong.

I highly recommend you do some investigation about these terrorist organizations, and then call a spade a spade.

Right now, you seem to be a bit more like a politician - talking about Hezbollah and Hamas out of both sides of your mouth - when they have clearly sponsored terrorism and have called for the complete annihilation of Israel.

You have bought into some of the lies of the Arab Propganda Machine.

I am not being juvenile. I am speaking up for justice and confronting unjust propaganda. In order to do that, I sometimes look juvenile, because I'm essentially saying, "Nuh-uh." But I'm not doing that for juvenile reasons. I would suggest that you are misjudging me.

More later...

5:18 PM  
Blogger MarcoConley said...

he Jews can trace their history all the way back to Biblical times. What of the history of these so-called Palestinians?

Lol I think we've litigated Israel-Palestine as far as we're gonna get, but since you ask:

Palestine is derived from a latin word which was derived from the hebrew word "Pelesheth", which means "Land of the Philistines".

The Philistines--- you're remember them, right? They were the ones who were living in Palestine before Joshua and the Israelites come in on their war of aggression, murdering and raping entire populations-- certainly not the last to involke genocide in order to acquire their promised Lebensraum.

Now me, I tend to say "nonsense" to all the ancient histories. Property rights just don't work that way. If a native american knocks on a door in suburbia and wants to evict the residents, because the house is on his ancestor's land-- no one's going to be calling the moving vans.

But, since the question is asked-- no, no. Palestine wasn't just something that was made up in the 1920s. No, the land of canaan wasn't like two children playing over a toy, where one of them has lost interest and doesn't want it anymore, until the other shows interest, at which point the once-bored child suddenly decides he wants the toy after all.

If you want to understand which nations have a 'right to exist'-- then look to the 1940s, not the bible. But, if you do decide to look to the old testament, do take not that even by that account, the Jews were invaders. Genocidal ones at that.

As for me, I don't hold that against them. The modern Israelis have about as much to do with Joshua as the modern Palestinians have to do with ancient Jericho--- not much at all. But before we invoke some three thousand year old land deeds to try to decide who belongs where, we might just take a second to realize that if we're going to actually decide things that way, then the palestinians get control of the land and the jews get a one-way ticket to the nuremberg trials.

2:40 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

Wrong. Thanks for playing.

For one, God had commanded the Jews to go conquer Canaan. God had given them the land, and God was bringing judgment on the Ammonites, Amorites, and various other "-ites" for their persistence in sin and rebellion.

Secondly, I do not remember "Philistines" anywhere in the Pentateuch or the book of Joshua. I do not think it is until 1 Samuel that we first see mention of the Philistines. I am not sure who the ancestors of the Philistines were.

Thirdly, while the name "Palestine" might be related to the name "Philistines" such a similarity in name does not necessarily imply that the modern day so-called Palestinians are descendents of the Philistines.

OK... doing a little research.

Genesis 10:13 is the first place the Philistines are mentioned. They are the descendents of the Casluhites which were descended from Mizraim - Canaan's brother - son of Ham.

So, apparently, the Philistines are entirely different from the Canaanites (which consisted of the Hittites, Jebusites, Amorites, Girgashites, Hivites, Arkites, Sinites, Arvadites, Zemarites, and Hamathites. These were the people that Joshua invaded - not the Philistines. (Although, it might be that the Philistines and the various "-ites" intermarried; I don't know).

This is an interesting website: http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php

This is another good website: http://www.pitt.edu/~mmv/israel.htm#misnomer

Anyway, thousands of years ago, the Romans referred to the whole region as Palestine. In this sense, Israel is a Jewish Palestinian state and Jordan is an Arab Palestinian state. A third state known as "Palestine" is a construct that has been sold to the world by the Arab Propaganda Machine. Only those who are ignorant of history realize the misnomer.

This website is great:
http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

Note the similarities between the Jordanian flag and the proposed "Palestinian" flag.

Oh... by the way, what is so special about the 1940's that we should look to that time to determine what to do about the current conflict. Talk about completely arbitrary. I think I'll go with God - and not with Marco - on this.

God bless.

9:15 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

"if we're going to actually decide things that way, then the palestinians get control of the land and the jews get a one-way ticket to the nuremberg trials."

This is why I am so concerned about a second Holocaust. You are being reckless and irresponsible with your rhetoric. And peoples' lives are on the line. For if you persuade people (which you can do), then that will lead to the deaths of many Jews.

Be very careful with your rhetoric. You are playing judge and jury about the justice of an ancient war. And your verdict is unjust.

9:18 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

iMuslim,

By the way... I would like to know early on, concerning this conflict, will you choose to be led by religious thinking or secular thinking?

See... in your case, you are wrong either way. Secularism and Islam are very different, but both have heretical and damnable doctrines.

9:22 AM  
Blogger MarcoConley said...

What is so special about the 1940s? It's a good question. Here is the answer:

I don't know anyone who was involved in the Babylonian Exile. I'm sorry the Jew got kidnapped, but they're all gone. They don't exist.

I'm sorry that the Jews revolted in 66 AD, I'm sorry Jerusalem was subsequently destroyed, and jews were cast out. But those people don't exist.
--

There are real people, right now, who used to live somewhere. They cared about it, they loved it-- and they were forced to leave their homes, in the hundreds of thousands.

they're still alive. They're still here. And there wasn't really any excuse for it. It happened because 1948 was a world where only europeans counted. It was the end of a colonial era, where the rest of the world was carved up by lines on a map drawn by the white skinned folk without any thought to the people living in the terrorities, or how they would be affected.

Take Iran. Do you know how the US's whole fight with Iran got started? The Iranian used to be a democracy. Unfortunately, the democratically elected leader decided that it wasn't a good idea to allow british and us oil companies to continue taking all of iran's oil basically for free.

So the CIA staged a coup. the US installed an oppressive MONARCH. a Monarch who would exploit the people and guarantee that the oil kept flowing. If this sounds like some sort of crazy conspiracy theory-- it's not. it's historical fact, it is undisputed.

So, let's keep that in mind. For all the talk of Iran needing to have a democracy-- the US is the one who overthrew him and installed a totalitarian leader. Most Americans have no clue-- they think that one day in 1979, Iranians woke up and decided they hated the west for no good reason.

The story of the Palestinian and Middle East conflict is this: If you treat people like they are ants whose feelings not matter, they will tend to not like you. If you decide you can evict them to create a whole new nation, they will fight it. If you decide their democracy doesn't matter, they may well create a government that's even worse than the one they had.

12:14 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

"The story of the Palestinian and Middle East conflict is this: If you treat people like they are ants whose feelings not matter, they will tend to not like you. If you decide you can evict them to create a whole new nation, they will fight it. If you decide their democracy doesn't matter, they may well create a government that's even worse than the one they had."

Overly simplistic. Typical "blame-America-first" rhetoric. Everything is America's fault. The Palestinians terrorists who blow up innocent Israeli civlians aren't to blame. They are merely victims of America - the Great Satan.

I'm not saying that America does not have any faults. Far from me to say that. But I am saying that you are not taking into consideration the theological reasons (since you're agnostic), the history (because those people are dead), or the fact that there are already two Palestinian states (because apparently, you are buying into the lies of the Arab Propaganda Machine). But all three of those categories must be taken into consideration.

9:01 AM  
Blogger MarcoConley said...

Overly simplistic. Typical "blame-America-first" rhetoric

Well, part and parcel of being "the most powerful nation in the world" is that you will often be "the most culpable nation in the world". That's how it works. It's not to say China would have ruled the Middle East any better if they had been as powerful as America. It's just a fact that the world we now lie in is, in fact, a bed made by the western powers over the past 60 years.

And I don't mean to suggest the West and Israel are the only ones at fault. There's plenty of blame to go around, but I am the kind of person that the roleplaying game "Dungeons and Dragons" calls a "True Neutral". This refers not to any sort of "neutrality" in the political sense-- rather it means I generally act in a way that offsets and balances those around me. When I was with my feminist friends, I was the outsider, forever pointing out errors in their thinking. When I was with my environmentalist friends, I was the one to speak up and say that nuclear power is good and recycling uses more energy than it saves. When I talk to my liberal friends, they're agast that I oppose Hate Crime and Gun Control legislation. My secular humanist friends always called me "The Pope" for my devotion to moderate ways and my spiritual musings. And my arab friends and I had a right good time hearing me harass their for their nations' racism towards jews, persecution of religion, and suppression of freedoms. There's plenty of blame to go round.

But, all those patterns mean that when I'm around you, my job in the universe isn't to help you blame the muslim nations-- you're doing that fine on your own. My job is to help you see that the palestinians are basically doing what you would be doing if you were in their shoes. :)

11:32 AM  
Blogger Dan said...

If I was in their shoes...

Do you think that I would hesitate to rail against the Palestinian culture? After all, I'm in American shoes, and I utter such awful cultural blasphemies like, "The First Amendment of the Constitution makes no philosophical sense and boils down to patronizing nonsense." I grew up in liberal Massachusetts and went to public school. I stuck out like a sore thumb - the Jesus Freak of my class.

If I was in their shoes, I would probably be asking why so many of my uncles used to be considered "Jordanian" until a certain day in the 1960's, when all of a sudden, they were considered "Palestinian."

I do not let my culture dictate to me what to think and believe. Rather, I look to God and seek to obey Him with all my heart.

If I was an Arab from that section of the world, I would speak out against al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, and Hamas. Of course, if I was an Arab in that part of the world, I also might end up being killed by my own people. Here in America, those who speak prophetically are generally ignored by the secularists. In the Middle East, those who speak prophetically are called blasphemers and are put to death by some low-life terrorist politician.

And it is iMuslim's responsibility to recognize this and condemn it whenever it happens.

11:46 AM  
Blogger iMuslim said...

Hi Dan,

Sorry to be late on the scene! No offence, but i forgot about this thread. Plus i'm not sure how much more i can contribute. Anyway...

See... in your case, you are wrong either way. Secularism and Islam are very different, but both have heretical and damnable doctrines.

The only damnable doctrine Islam has from your point of view is that it preaches that God has no son, and that Jesus Christ (peace be upon him) was a noble Prophet.

Really, that's it.

You don't know how many times i read some of your comments on other blogs, and if you simply wiped away certain references to Christianity, we'd be speaking the same language.

I'm not sure why i can see that but you can't. Perhaps it's because i have affection in my hearts towards practising Christians because of their love for Jesus and his teachings, and Islam commands me to respect certain aspects of your religion because it has the same roots as mine.

In fact there is only one religion - the religion of God. We just have to pray we're following it.

However, you think i'm part of some far-out cult and will obviously refuse to assign any truth to Islam. Thus Islam and the Muslims are dangerous and should be talked down.

I get it. I truely do.

What can be done other then for one of us to revert to the other's religion?

God alone knows - maybe we can agree on that one.

You asked on my blog why you should read the Qur'an. Perhaps because Islam has the second (and soon to be first) largest following of any religion in the world. So if you are going to start studying another religion, you may as well know what 1 billion other people on the planet affiliate themselves with.

Also, it would be nice to know whether the prejeudice certain members of your society have against 1/6th of the planet (of whom only around 20% are Arab) is justified, by reading the source of their religion.

Also i would argue that Christianity has more in common with Islam than it has with Judaism. At least we both acknowledge Jesus, right?

I hope that is enough reason to begin with (other then Islam being the truth - just teasing you with that, i mean IT IS, but y'know, you disagree. hehe).

Best wishes,

iMuslim

P.S. i think you should read this article as IMHO it offers an excellent explanation of the central philosophy of Islam, mashallah.

7:55 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

imuslim,

Don't get me wrong. I respect all the Islamic creeds which are in agreement with orthodox Christianity.

I also am not a racist. I would love to have you as a friend. If you lived in the area, I would invite you over for a game night or for a Bible study. I would even invite you over to read the Qur'an with you. In all ways Christian, I extend to you my most sincere friendship.

And let it be known that in no way do I harbor any resentment in my heart for you or for Arabs or for Muslims. I think that my rhetoric sometimes makes me look like an angry, resentful person. Not so. I have been shown the love of Christ - wretched sinner that I am. And so, I am ready and willing to walk with you right where you are at. I just hope that you will come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

7:24 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

iMuslim,

Whoever wrote that article needs to embrace the idea of paragraphs.

11:25 AM  

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